Sometimes your best stuff on a blog is the responses.
Here’s some back and forth on a recent post about Tony B. and the way Mets minor leaguers are treated in the organization:
Teddy Dziuba said...
...you force 75 guys the practice (without pay) for 11 hours a day for 6 days a week, and the one night of the week when they don't have to wake up @ 5:00 AM and practice the next morning, you force them into there rooms at 9:00PM. No booze and no women in the hotel. And with 40 rooms sharing one wireless network, there is barely enough bandwidth to download internet porn. Not exactly what all of us dream about as little leaguers when we think of professional baseball...Ahhhhhh, good old extended camp...
Matt Himelfarb said...
I hate to play devil's advocate here, but the impression I get is that most organization's prioritize individual performance above team performance. I see what you mean about Bernazard fostering an atmosphere that was perhaps too competitive, pitting players against each other. But wouldn't you admit there were players like yourself, who, talented as you are, weren't considered first tier prospects, probably did secretly hope some players failed? Maybe not a team wide failure, but a guy whom you were competing with for playing time?IMO, there's a fine line between team performance and individual performance at the minor league level. Numerous prospects sacrifice short-term (season-long) pain for long term gain. For instance, an A-Ball pitcher might be better off performance wise if he blows away guy's with his fastball, but he knows that if he wants to make it past AA, let alone succeed in the big leagues, he'll have to work on say, his secondary stuff. I'm not condoning what Bernazard did, but his job is to develop guys capable of playing in the big leagues. I could see where a guy in the situation above could get caught up in his team's playoff race instead of worrying about his development.Last but not least, not looking to start anything personal, but isn't the American/Spanish divide often voluntary? Would you be able to elaborate on that point?Not doubting anything you say, just thought I'd raise a few questions. Maybe I got a negative view of the minor leagues after reading Matt McCarthy's odd man out. Keep up the good work.
Teddy Dziuba said...
Hey Matt, always enjoyed your postsI don't think I was able to verbalize what I was trying to say in describing the culture of the Mets minor leagues. Let me preface the following comments by saying this: I never harbored the delusion that I was on the fast track to the big leagues and during my playing career, I was well aware that the Mets were using me as cannon fodder...not that that was easy to swallow, but I was always self-aware and new that the road was going to end at some pointThat being said, my biggest gripe with how things played out was that their was really no incentive for playing "smart" baseball in the Mets system...it was a system that encouraged coaches to toss blame at the players, and truly, it was more beneficial to "not screw up" than it was to do your job properly. Praise was thrown at certain prospects for not making certain mistakes instead of actually performing well.It's really hard to put into words, but it was a system of evaluation that was predicated on negativity. 2 examples:Camp in 2007, I spoke to the speedy ss batting in front of me who lead off the inning. I told him, "if you get on, I'll get in the catchers way on the first pitch so you can steal 2b" He walked, I fake bunted (on my own), catcher dropped the ball and the runner got a free stolen base. Next pitch, i rolled over a ground ball, got the runner to third with one out, and thought I had done my job. Instead of a pat on the ass for working with my teammate and getting the runner over, I was chastised for wasting the at bat and for not getting my pitch. Am I nitpicking? maybe, but this is the kind of stuff that pervaded the system3 Days before my release in 2008, I went 4-4 with a home run, 2 doubles, 4 rbi and missed the cycle because I slipped rounding first base on the first double. After the game, the only thing my coach said to me was "you gotta work on your turns rounding first" He was serious...no "good game Ted", no "way to hit em", just another negative comment in a long line of negative comments that sapped players of their confidence and desire to continue working as hard.I like to think of myself as a likeable guy Matt, and in the realm of minor league ballplayers, an ameable kid with no ego is hard to come by, so its not like I was treated any differently for any reason, it was just a system wide dynamic that forced players to think that its better to just not screw up than try and do that little extra at the expense of potentially being called out for itMaybe I'm biased because I went to a college specializing in entrepreneurship, but baseball was always like jazz to me, players (especially catchers) constantly need to adapt and think on the fly to perform to their fullest. I just got the sense that such behavior was frowned upon. If a coach hadn't expressly taught a certain aspect of the game, don't even think of doing anything otherwise. Maybe i'm placing too much blame on Tony himself, but he was the king of pointing out the flaws in players he didn't like, and accentuating the small positives of the guys he did like. Without naming names, there are 5-10 players in the system who are on their 4th, 5th and 6th chances with the Mets...why then are so many not even given that first chance? And I know your response is that some guys just aren't meant to be big leaguers, but for every failed Mets prospect during this most recent tenure that was given every opportunity to succeed and failed, I feel like there are just as many kids who could have developed into the Joe McEwing's or David Eckstein's of the world but just weren't given their 100 at bats to prove itForgive me if any of my writing is whiny and sounds like its coming from a bitter ex minor leaguer...i assure you, that is not my intention. I just think there are some fundamental flaws in the player development approach that Tony employed, or at least helped oversee
Here’s some back and forth on a recent post about Tony B. and the way Mets minor leaguers are treated in the organization:
Teddy Dziuba said...
...you force 75 guys the practice (without pay) for 11 hours a day for 6 days a week, and the one night of the week when they don't have to wake up @ 5:00 AM and practice the next morning, you force them into there rooms at 9:00PM. No booze and no women in the hotel. And with 40 rooms sharing one wireless network, there is barely enough bandwidth to download internet porn. Not exactly what all of us dream about as little leaguers when we think of professional baseball...Ahhhhhh, good old extended camp...
Matt Himelfarb said...
I hate to play devil's advocate here, but the impression I get is that most organization's prioritize individual performance above team performance. I see what you mean about Bernazard fostering an atmosphere that was perhaps too competitive, pitting players against each other. But wouldn't you admit there were players like yourself, who, talented as you are, weren't considered first tier prospects, probably did secretly hope some players failed? Maybe not a team wide failure, but a guy whom you were competing with for playing time?IMO, there's a fine line between team performance and individual performance at the minor league level. Numerous prospects sacrifice short-term (season-long) pain for long term gain. For instance, an A-Ball pitcher might be better off performance wise if he blows away guy's with his fastball, but he knows that if he wants to make it past AA, let alone succeed in the big leagues, he'll have to work on say, his secondary stuff. I'm not condoning what Bernazard did, but his job is to develop guys capable of playing in the big leagues. I could see where a guy in the situation above could get caught up in his team's playoff race instead of worrying about his development.Last but not least, not looking to start anything personal, but isn't the American/Spanish divide often voluntary? Would you be able to elaborate on that point?Not doubting anything you say, just thought I'd raise a few questions. Maybe I got a negative view of the minor leagues after reading Matt McCarthy's odd man out. Keep up the good work.
Teddy Dziuba said...
Hey Matt, always enjoyed your postsI don't think I was able to verbalize what I was trying to say in describing the culture of the Mets minor leagues. Let me preface the following comments by saying this: I never harbored the delusion that I was on the fast track to the big leagues and during my playing career, I was well aware that the Mets were using me as cannon fodder...not that that was easy to swallow, but I was always self-aware and new that the road was going to end at some pointThat being said, my biggest gripe with how things played out was that their was really no incentive for playing "smart" baseball in the Mets system...it was a system that encouraged coaches to toss blame at the players, and truly, it was more beneficial to "not screw up" than it was to do your job properly. Praise was thrown at certain prospects for not making certain mistakes instead of actually performing well.It's really hard to put into words, but it was a system of evaluation that was predicated on negativity. 2 examples:Camp in 2007, I spoke to the speedy ss batting in front of me who lead off the inning. I told him, "if you get on, I'll get in the catchers way on the first pitch so you can steal 2b" He walked, I fake bunted (on my own), catcher dropped the ball and the runner got a free stolen base. Next pitch, i rolled over a ground ball, got the runner to third with one out, and thought I had done my job. Instead of a pat on the ass for working with my teammate and getting the runner over, I was chastised for wasting the at bat and for not getting my pitch. Am I nitpicking? maybe, but this is the kind of stuff that pervaded the system3 Days before my release in 2008, I went 4-4 with a home run, 2 doubles, 4 rbi and missed the cycle because I slipped rounding first base on the first double. After the game, the only thing my coach said to me was "you gotta work on your turns rounding first" He was serious...no "good game Ted", no "way to hit em", just another negative comment in a long line of negative comments that sapped players of their confidence and desire to continue working as hard.I like to think of myself as a likeable guy Matt, and in the realm of minor league ballplayers, an ameable kid with no ego is hard to come by, so its not like I was treated any differently for any reason, it was just a system wide dynamic that forced players to think that its better to just not screw up than try and do that little extra at the expense of potentially being called out for itMaybe I'm biased because I went to a college specializing in entrepreneurship, but baseball was always like jazz to me, players (especially catchers) constantly need to adapt and think on the fly to perform to their fullest. I just got the sense that such behavior was frowned upon. If a coach hadn't expressly taught a certain aspect of the game, don't even think of doing anything otherwise. Maybe i'm placing too much blame on Tony himself, but he was the king of pointing out the flaws in players he didn't like, and accentuating the small positives of the guys he did like. Without naming names, there are 5-10 players in the system who are on their 4th, 5th and 6th chances with the Mets...why then are so many not even given that first chance? And I know your response is that some guys just aren't meant to be big leaguers, but for every failed Mets prospect during this most recent tenure that was given every opportunity to succeed and failed, I feel like there are just as many kids who could have developed into the Joe McEwing's or David Eckstein's of the world but just weren't given their 100 at bats to prove itForgive me if any of my writing is whiny and sounds like its coming from a bitter ex minor leaguer...i assure you, that is not my intention. I just think there are some fundamental flaws in the player development approach that Tony employed, or at least helped oversee
Appreciate the response Teddy. I see your point about Bernzard's and co.'s intimidation and assertion of authority a lot better now. If anything, it hurts pd.
ReplyDeleteOne question though: What do you think Bernazard's criteria is for playing favorites? Why does he favor certain players when the talent difference is negligible? Do you think this was about him angling for power?
Hey Matt,
ReplyDeleteIn response to your question, any answer I give would only be speculation and im not exactly the most trusted source...Christ, Adam Rubin knows more about the Mets than anyone and nowadays even he can't give an opinion without the general manager calling him out...
But I'll say this. Tony had a clear preference for fellow Puerto Rican born ballplayers. He would toss extra batting practice to them and a handful of the other latin born ballplayers exclusively. He was a big fan of Hector Pellot's and supposedly he cried when Jose Castro was traded to the Reds in the Jeff Conine deal. I'm not one to pass judgement, but for a guy who is supposed to be impartial and judge ballplayers based on talent and future ability, I would think crying when one of them gets traded is not a good sign for someone who is not supposed to play favorites