Over the winter, many fans were upset that more was not done to improve the Mets' offense. Sure, they added one of the best catching prospects in the game, however the OF is still weak for the long-term. Duda is not a solution in LF, Cowgill works hard but is not a starting player, and Byrd is on his last legs. One thing that has been required with this front office is patience. Unfortunately many fans who were willing to wait until 2014 are now cynically saying maybe 2015 or 2016 we'll compete. I genuinely doubt that that's the plan.
Alderson and Co. KNOW that they have to put a competitive product on the field and that their honeymoon period is coming to a close. The Mets were supposed to be "Moneyball with money"...they seem to have gotten the first part down and built a young and affordable foundation and now the additional pieces need to be added.
Yesterday, I (like many other Mets fans) woke up to a report that the Mets are keeping tabs on how the Stanton and CarGo situations are developing in Miami and Colorado. My first response was 'of course they are', however it was good to read it in print. The piece went on to reference other marquee outfielders that the Mets had interest in. We know about Bourn and Upton, but the article also talked about how Sandy had interest in grabbing Andre Ethier from LA or Alex Gordon from KC. All of this tells me what most fans implicitly get - the Mets are going to add the right bat or bats, it just will take some time for the situation to evolve.
With regard to Stanton, I've made it very clear that I believe that he should be the #1 priority to add to this lineup. He's young (younger than d'Arnaud), hits with amazing power, plays a decent OF, and is likely to be traded. His addition will transform the lineup, both lengthening it and making the surrounding hitters that much better. David Wright has never had the type of protection that hitting in front of Stanton would provide. The question is what it will take to get him. The rumors surround Wheeler and d'Arnaud. First, I don't want to trade both of them for Stanton. Sure, the Mets would upgrade the offense, but they'd be right back to searching for a catcher and I'm betting on all of the scouts who have seen Wheeler and say he's got ACE written all over him. The next ideas floated have surrounded picking one of the two and then building a larger offer around him. I'm against this as well. I'm of the belief that we can eat our cake and have it too here. I want to hang onto d'Arnaud because catcher is such a valuable position and I want Wheeler here because of his upside and because he's been part of 'the future' for so long.
My thinking is that in a couple of months time the Mets will be able to sell Rafael Montero as just as good as Wheeler. The early scouting reports have him with a high ceiling and he's been flat out dominating in the early going at AA. If by June he's up to Las Vegas and still blowing hitters away, the rest of MLB will catch up to what the rest of us already know about him. Remember, it wasn't all that long ago that Wheeler was 'maybe a reliever' or a 'middle of the rotation starter'. Going into 2011, the year he was traded for Beltran, Wheeler was rated the #55 prospect in baseball. I wouldn't be at all surprised if Montero moved up the lists quickly. I don't suspect that Stanton will be dealt until July the earliest....maybe even in the offseason. Montero's stock could be high enough by then to supplant Wheeler in trade talks.
Only a level behind Montero, the same could be said very soon about Luis Mateo. Since the Marlins are also thin at catcher, I'd see about moving Kevin Plawecki into a deal. He's only at A-ball right now, but he's mashing. If he can get a promotion and continue his hitting, his stock will also rise. Remember, when d'Arnaud was originally traded for Halladay he was only in Single-A and a long way from a sure thing.
Of course, Montero-Plawecki doesn't have the sex appeal of Wheeler-d'Arnaud right at this moment, but that's where the other chips come in. Sell the Marlins on a 4-, 5-, or 6-for-1 deal and overpay. They have other holes in their organization, including 3B and 2B. The Mets could look to include Flores and Valdespin or use some of their expendables to go around MLB collecting pieces that Miami wants. With the way Buck and Murphy are performing, they each could net a decent prospect or two. Also, contending teams are always in the market for competent relief pitching and the Mets could offer Lyon and Francisco around to see who's interested. Remember, in 2010 Matt Capps was pitching to a 2.74 ERA when the Nationals dealt him for Wilson Ramos, the #58 overall prospect in baseball. Lastly, starting pitching seems to be at a premium. If Gee settles down and Marcum can pitch a couple months of healthy baseball that's two more trade chips. We know from the Beltran and Dickey trades that Alderson wants to maximize his assets...he even tried to hold out for a top prospect for Hairston last year.
If I were in Alderson's shoes I would talk to Marlins GM Larry Beinfest weekly to monitor his interest in dealing Stanton as well as get a feel for what would get a trade moving. If I were in the position of trading Stanton the way Beinfest is, I'd want a number of quality prospects rather than Wheeler and d'Arnaud. What if Wheeler gets injured? What if d'Arnaud doesn't live up to his promise? It would be wasting one of the best young hitters in baseball. This could be Beinfest's Herschel Walker deal, to round out the team and construct an entire roster. Usually trades wind up having to choose between making a choice for quantity or trading for quality. To ensure the Mets get Stanton, the offer to Miami should cover both. Prospects can be quality without being in the top ten of all of baseball.
The expendable players I mentioned to trade can almost all be replaced internally for now, so, the big league club could add a bona fide slugger and not do too much damage to the overall squad. A trade of Montero, Plawecki, Top 3B prospect, Top 2B prospect, throw-in might just be enough to get Stanton to NYC. Alderson should have no qualms about flipping prospects in multiple deals as it was also reported that he has no special attachment to Wheeler and d'Arnaud just because he acquired them in trade. If he traded John Buck for a Top 50 prospect in June, I doubt he'd be squeamish about trading that same prospect in July or November.
With regard to the CarGo situation, I'd pass. He's a nice player but the Mets should be looking for surefire players if they're going to trade their young talent. Until proven otherwise, he cannot hit outside of Coors Field. The same was said about Matt Holliday and he turned out just fine, I just don't want to take the chance. However, there have been reports that Troy Tulowitzki might be on the block soon. His extension is going to kick in very shortly and he'll be making $20M per season. The Rockies might not want to pay that and teams (at least the Cardinals) have already been feeling around about what the Rockies might want in return. Tulo himself was quoted as saying he thought he would be traded last offseason. This is the player the Mets should target from Colorado. He's a star player at a premium position and the best overall SS in baseball right now. The Mets could afford the salary given some of the younger players are relatively cheap and the pitching staff (Harvey, Niese, 2 internal solutions - hopefully Wheeler and Syndergaard) will be making less than $10M total over the next few years. I would happily start shopping Ike Davis around in order to make a deal for Tulo. With 1B being such an important position and so many teams out there lacking a run-producer at the position, Davis should be able to net two prospects. The Mets could package those from the Davis trade with another young arm (Mateo? Fulmer? Any of the other potential RH starters?) and put together a solid offer for Tulowitzki as well. Duda could shift to 1B, giving the Mets a 3-4-5-6-7 of Wright-Stanton-Duda-Tulowitzki-d'Arnaud to go with their blossoming pitching staff.
I covered this in another post (http://macksmets.blogspot.com/2013/03/part-1-next-mets-of-lh-corner-of.html ), but if the Mets wanted to go in another direction, they could sign Choo and/or Pence next offseason or they could make trades for All-Star OFers not necessarily of Stanton's stature. We know that the Mets had and likely still have interest in Andre Ethier. With Yasiel Puig destroying AA pitching right now, it won't be long before he hits the majors. Once that happens, Ethier will be available. The Dodgers will want to save his money to extend Kershaw as soon as possible. Ethier would be a solid and credible but not great addition to the team. As it would likely be a salary dump, the price shouldn't be nearly as high as for Stanton. I'd also assume the Mets have interest in Alex Gordon. The team's announcement over the winter that they would not trade Jon Niese for Gordon smells of negotiating through the press. I'm assuming the Mets liked Gordon, KC demanded Niese, and the Mets tried to get them to back off to no avail. Acquiring Gordon all depends on how the season goes for the Royals. If they make the playoffs, it'll be less likely that Gordon is dealt. If they miss the playoffs, he could be on the market with $35M left on his contract over the next 3 years.
I know that some fans were extremely disappointed that the Mets let Upton slip through their fingers, however by the looks of things there will be some very attractive options on the market for the Mets to add to their team.
My dream scenario -
KC misses the playoffs
The Rockies decide to move Tulo's contract
Miami wants to move Stanton and maximize his value by acquiring as many players as possible
Trade Buck - Prospect A, replace with d'Arnaud
Trade Murphy - Prospect B, replace with Turner (temporarily)
Trade Gee - Prospect C, replace with Wheeler
Trade Lyon - Prospect D, replace with Familia
Trade Francisco - Prospect E, replace with Mazzoni
Trade Marcum - Prospect F, replace with Mejia(?)
Montero, Plawecki, Prospect A, Prospect B, Prospect F - Giancarlo Stanton
Davis (or prospects acquired for him), Tejada, Mateo - Troy Tulowitzki
Prospect C, Prospect D, Prospect E, Valdespin - Alex Gordon
1.
2. LF Gordon (10)
3. 3B Wright (20)
4. RF Stanton
5. 1B Duda (0.5)
6. SS Tulowitzki (20)
7. Ca d'Arnaud (0.5)
8.
SP1 Harvey (0.5)
SP2 Niese (5)
SP3 Wheeler (0.5)
SP4 Syndergaard (0.5)
SP5
That's $57.5M, not including Stanton's arbitration number, 2B, CF, bullpen, and bench.
This also preserves Wheeler, d'Arnaud, Syndergaard, Flores, Fulmer, Nimmo, DeGrom, Verrett, Mazzoni, Familia, etc. The only major prospects dealt are Montero, Plawecki, and Mateo.
There's no way to know which way the organization will go, however I'm very confident that they will work to add at least two established major league hitters to the lineup and we'll forget all about Michael Bourn and Justin Upton.
This is good stuff...
ReplyDeleteWhat happened to all our comments?
Very creative thinking as always Michael. I want to provide some counterpoint because I don't think all 3 of those trades can happen.
ReplyDeleteI think you can get away with giving more lower to mid level prospects to the marlins because it's going to take them 2-3 years to graduate enough young guys to start to contend.
I'd try giving them Syndergaard, Duda, Plawecki, Flores and 1 or 2 lower level guys. I think they get plenty of pitching here, a good catcher and a plus hitting 1b in Duda and Spin who I think will fit in better personality wise down there. Even if you have to throw in another good pitcher like Mateo and make this a 6 for 1 it would be a good deal.
I like our infield. They've had some time to gel and they play well together (i know people are going to say sell high on Murphy but he's proving he's not a liability at all at 2nd as his defense continues to improve and his bats as good or better then ever. I'm not saying he's got a gold glove, but I think his d will be solid average. He's to o much of a pest in the lineup and a great club house guy. I'm keeping him.)
So you have Stanton in right field, Duda's gone and centerfield is open as well. I really like Gordon as a secondary target. If you can trade for him giving up anybody but Wheeler, d'Arnaud and Montero I'd pull the trigger. (perhaps Flores, Mateo, Mazzoni, plus whoever we aquore for Buck)
Sign Ellsbury and you're done.
1. CF Ellsbury
2. RF Gordon
3. 3B Wright
4. 1B Davis
5. RF Stanton
6. 2B Murphy
7. C d'Arnaud
8. SS Tejada
Rotation
1. Harvey
2. Niese
3. Wheeler
4. Montero
5. Gee
Even if you can only swing Stanton you can swap Murph back into the second spot and either sign another free agent (pence or choo) or a platoon in LF adn still have a great team.
I just don't see us having the horses to pull off 3 huge trades like.
A Gordon, Ellsbuyr, Stanton would rock.
(Michael trades a lot... :)
ReplyDeleteHe does, I love his trade targets. I think a case could be made for Tulo and one of the Gordon also. I'd love to get 2 out of 3 and sing Ellsbury as long as his contract demands aren't too much of an overpay.
ReplyDeleteI stand by what an ex-free agent told me that wanted to sign with the Mets and was talked out of it by his agent.
ReplyDeleteHe was 32, never won a World Series and had one more good contract in him.
His agent convinced him that the WS doesn't play through the Wilpons and Willet's Point.
I do like to trade :)
ReplyDeleteIf the Mets want to add talent, they're going to have to make deals and we might as well scoop up whomever we can, especially if Mack is right about free agents.
I would make one point about that though. If the Mets build a young and dominating pitching staff, and they add 1-2 pieces to the lineup, free agents will change their minds I realize the Wilpons have a lot to do with the culture, but if Alderson builds a winner the culture will change and players will sign here.
Daniel - As always, thanks for your praise. The Mets are going to have to be creative in adding to the offense and I think it can be done. I don't think many GM's would be as aggressive as I'd like Sandy to be. However, I look at the Dodgers and think there's no reason the Mets can't add 3 very good hitters. They have some marketable vets they can flip into marketable prospects and an embarrassment of riches as far as minor league pitching.
I'm a little surprised at the lack of comments, usually Charles and/or Soto come by.
ReplyDeleteAlso, no one really took the bait on my Montero=Wheeler point. It's the pivot that the entire strategy relies on.
Daniel - Signing Ellsbury works for me, I'm just worried he'll want too much.
Soto is no longer a writer on the site. I don't expect him to leave comments either.
ReplyDeleteOh....okay
ReplyDeleteEllsbury will deffinetly be an overpay. If it's not too bad, particularly in terms of years I'd like to see it get done, partially to shw we mean business again, kinda like when Omar signed Pedro and Beltran.
ReplyDelete3-4 years for Ellsbury is all I'd go. By then Nimmo should be ready.
ReplyDeleteI intentionally left 2B and CF open because I thought they might be positions that could be filled cheaply, allowing the team to keep the payroll around $100M. In the short term and leaving room for raises going forward. The assumption being that the Mets would have a winning product on the field and thus leading to greater revenue. I think fans would be falling all over themselves to see a club featuring 3-5 all stars in its lineup and a pitching staff loaded with young aces.
My first choices? Starling Marte for CF and Nick Franklin for 2B. I just don't know if they'd have the horses to make deals for them as well. Overall, I want this FO getting aggressive and aiming high. For now I'm comfortable in my thinking that they will.
One last comment Daniel - You're breaking my heart by moving Syndergaard. I think he'll wind up as the best pitcher of all the young guns. I think Harvey will always be the Ace because of his talent and guile, but Thor will also be a dominant pitcher.
ReplyDeleteMichael -
ReplyDeletethe only horses we have are pitchers at the AA level or below.
You want to keep Montero and Syndergaard, they, Harvey, Wheeler, and Niese are your San Francisco/Detroit rotation in 2015.
NOBODY trades for pitchers in the A level- You just don't know what you have.
That leaves Verrett and Mazonni and they aren't going to get you what you want.
I'm with you on most of that Mack. I've always gamed out the future rotation without Montero for two reasons - a) his slight build and b) I want another lefty in the rotation in addition to Niese. One of Syndergaard, Wheeler, and Montero will be an odd man out in that scenario. I'm also assuming Mateo will be in AA before you know it...same goes for Fulmer. I know he's injured but I think he hits Bingo sometime this year. That leaves Montero, Mateo, and Fulmer as three potential anchors for three separate deals.
ReplyDeleteMontero + gets Stanton
Mateo + gets Tulo
Fulmer + for Gordon
This also doesn't take into account any AA pitchers the Mets might get for Murphy, Gee, or Buck.
I'm not looking at things as thought the Mets were going to make trades today, I'm trying to predict the situation they'll be in a few months from now. Their situation could easily be radically different by July.
And Mack, I'm not trying to be a smartass, but Zack Wheeler was pitching in A-level San Jose when he was sent to the Mets.
ReplyDeleteFor Stanton, The Marlin's GM, just like Sandy did with the RA trade, will insist on at least one of the Mets' top prospects. That means Wheeler or DarNo. There is zero chance this happens unless the Marlins can look baseball in the eye; knowing, they made a great deal. The Toronto deal put this team on thin ice. If they trade their last superstar, they'll have to be grossly over paid(which, IS NOT Sandy's style).
ReplyDeleteGiancarlo is young and his raw power is unmatched in MLB. The cost is more than Montero plus four other guys. Look, Montero is looked at now as a future number three starter and isn't ranked in mlb's top 100. Even with a spectacular first half, where will his ranking be? Back fifties of the top 100? He couldn't possibly be a center piece.
Me? I believe there isn't a better way to build a championship than to have as much young pitching as possible. By 2014, the Mets rotation should include Niese, Harvey, Wheeler, Montero, and Gee. Remember, Wheeler and Montero probably won't have the initial success that Harvey had, but they'll certainly be very good.
Now, you can do two things...
One, trade Gee for a good outfielder. Nothing beats the return a good starting pitcher gets you.
Two, and this is the simplest option, simply spend some of that damn money that'll finally be available and fill out the outfield with a free agent or two. I like this option best.
2013 will most likely end with a losing record. There's no reason at this point, especially when you don't know how your prospects will pan out, to start trading away pieces that could in just two years, become members of the most dominant and young pitching staffs in baseball.
Teams win championships with pitching. At this point, the Mets only need one more pitching prospect to pan out. I think Wheeler and Montero are locks at this point. So if just one pitcher from the group that includes Syndergaard, Tapia, Mateo, DeGrom, and Fulmer fulfill their potential, the Mets will have a dominant five man rotation.
That rotation, with their current infield, plus Travis DarNo, Lucas Duda, and the fifty million they'll have to spend, should easily put this team over the top by 2015.
I know, who wants to wait another two years? Remember though, they'll have plenty of cash next off season and with Wheeler and Montero added to the rotation, they should easily be a playoff team next year too. I bet on pitching every time and when I account for the money they'll have to spend, I just don't think Stanton is necessary. They can keep their young players and just spend in free agency.
Then, once they're competitive and winning games, that's when they can deal a player in order to strengthen the team. The Mets have finally built a decent system, due in large part, by trading away their own stars. Soon, they'll have a very young and talented core of players both in the rotation and throughout the lineup. They'll also have depth throughout their system which means they can sustain a winning team for multiple years.
That'll bring in massive amounts of dollars and further help in keeping the Mets competitive. I know I'm in the minority here, but I'm passing on Stanton.
As much as I like Stanton and the trades we could get done there are two other possibilities that come to mind. As Charles mentions we can do this totally through FA with 2 signings this off season. Ellsbury and Pence. For this plan I would trade Duda for an extra piece and put Spin in left batting leadoff.
ReplyDelete1 LF Spin
2 CF Ellsbury
3 3B Wright
4 1B Davis
5 RF Pence
6 2B Murphy
7 C d'Arnaud
8 SS Tejada
Also, I'm starting to think that Tulo might be more attractive trade target then Stanton.
You give them Duda to play 1B since Helton is done, Tejada, Gee and a few of our AA pitchers since the Rockies are light in pitching.
Charles - You're correct, Montero might not have a strong enough reputation to be considered a top prospect. That wold obviously have an impact and Wheeler or Syndergaard would have to go to Miami to get Stanton.
ReplyDeleteHowever, I don't believe Beinfest gives a flying fig about getting the best prospect back in order to prove someone to baseball. He wants to get the best value for Stanton and by extension do what's best for the team. The Marlins are still following their MO of build up and tear down. I agree with you that one SP3 and 4 other guys would be a joke. I'm looking at it as a potential SP2 or even SP1 plus two top infield prospects acquired in other deals for vets and whatever throw-ins the Marlins want. If I were in Beinfest's shoes, given the Toronto deal, and having Fernandez, Turner, Heaney, and Nicolino already in the system, I'dbe less inclined to demand the best pitcher available andId be more likely to make a franchise-building trade.
Winning teams always have really good pitching, however they need offense as well. The Braves had some of the best pitching in history but were barely ever able to break through. If the team isn't scoring runs, it doesn't matter how good the pitching is, just ask Johan Santana. Call me greedy, but I want both. I want a pitching staff that other teams don't want to have to face and a lineup that wears opposing pitchers out.
The Mets can make some moves through free agency and be 'good enough' but it seems that might not do the job. With Atlanta and Washington being what they are, good enough could be a ticket to third place for the next five years.
Daniel - What do you think:
ReplyDelete1. Duda or Davis
2. Tejada
3. Mateo
4. Fulmer
5. Tapia or Ynoa or Robles
For Tulo
I think that's a fair trade package, all are people I'd give up for Tulo.
ReplyDeleteYou know me by now, I'd prefer to give up Duda, I know Ike's gotten off to his second slow start but I'd still prefer to keep him over Duda.
I also think Gose should be kept on the Mets radar. If any of our veterans can help the Jays we can swing a deal for him.