Gary Seagran –
Mack, how about your input on how much better teams seem to do in the draft today as opposed to the early days when it seemed like a much bigger crap shoot. Is it just because of the fact that so much more money is at stake or something else?
Well, first of all, define the early days.
I became baseball crazy around 1957, when I was 10 years old. Back then there were a handful of African-American players and there really wasn’t any pipeline to Latin America, but there was also only 16 major league teams in baseball.
I’m assuming they operated back then with a similar 25-man squad which means, in total, there were 400 total major league baseball players vs. the 750 you have now. Your favorite team owned the players they had signed or traded for and they received their one-year renewal contract every year in the mail.
There wasn’t the kind of roster turnover back then that you see now. Pee Wee Reese was your shortstop and would remain so until he retired.
Let’s look at that same 1957 Dodgers team and see where those players came from:
Pitchers (17)
Don Bessent – not drafted – played for Dodgers in 1955
Jackie Collum – released by Cubs in 1957 – signed by Dodgers
Roger Craig – not drafted – played for Dodgers in 1955
Don Drysdale – not drafted – played for Dodgers in 1956
Don Elston – not drafted – pitched 9 seasons with Cubs and one inning for Dodgers in 1957
Carl Erskine – not drafted – played for Dodgers in 1948
Bill Harris – not drafted – played for Dodgers in 1947
Fred Kipp – not drafted – played for Dodgers in 1947
Sandy Koufax – not drafted – played for Dodgers in 1955
Clem Labine – not drafted – played for Dodgers in 1950
Ken Lehman – not drafted – played for Dodgers in 1952
Sal Maglie – not drafted – signed by NY Giants in 1945 – Dodgers bought him from Cleveland in 1956
Danny McDevitt – not drafted – played for Dodgers in 1957
Don Newcombe – not drafted – played for Dodgers in 1947
Johnny Podres – not drafted – played for Dodgers in 1953
Ed Roebuck – not drafted – played for Dodgers in 1955
Rene Valdes – no information available online
Catchers (4)-
Roy Campanella – not drafted – played for Dodgers in 1948
Joe Pignatano – not drafted – played for Dodgers in 1957
Johnny Roseboro – not drafted – played for Dodgers in 1957
Rube Walker – not drafted – played for Cubs in 1948 – traded to Dodgers in 1951
Infielders (7)
Jim Gentile – not drafted – played for Dodgers in 1957
Jim Gilliam – not drafted – played for Dodgers in 1953
Gil Hodges – not drafted – played for Dodgers in 1943
Randy Jackson – not drafted – played for Cubs in 1950 – traded Don Hoak, Russ Meyer and Walt Moryn to the Cubs for Jackson and Don Elston in 1956
Charlie Neal – not drafted – played for Dodgers in 1956
Pee Wee Reese – not drafted – played for Dodgers in 1940
Don Zimmer – not drafted – played for Dodgers in 1954
Outfielders (6)
Sandy Amoros – not drafted – played for Dodgers in 1952
Gino Cimoli – not drafted – played for Dodgers in 1956
Carl Furillo – not drafted – played for Dodgers in 1946
Bob Kennedy – not drafted – played for CWS in 1939, played for Dodgers in 1957
Duke Snider – not drafted – played for Dodgers in 1947
Elmer Valo – not drafted – played for Philadelphia in 1940 – played one year for Dodgers in 1957
By now you have noticed that none of the 1957 Dodgers were drafted. The draft came along in 1965 which leveled the playing field for all the teams in the league. Before that, the owners with the big bucks and the teams with the better scouting system signed the better players.
Only eight of the 34 1957 Dodgers came from other teams and only Sal Maglie looks to be anyone worth bragging about. You built your team from within and your scouts reported back who should be signed. Those that did their job well, won. Those that didn’t, didn’t.
Also can someone PLEASE tell me why TC is playing guys like Baxter, Turner and Brown over the DD, Flores and Tovar for example? Tovar has 2 hits in his first game and Q is back in the lineup the next day....ridiculous.
Gary, I have never been able to figure out ‘The Collins Plan’. This version could be design to lose rather than develop. In both cases, it is backfiring.
A quick reminder regarding the Mets first pick in the 2014 draft, regardless whether it’s the 7th overall or as low as 15th… this will be a high quality, top-of-the-shelf ballplayer with a huge pedigree. The 2014 draft is currently projected as the top first round in the last 10 years. It’s that deep with quality players, especially high school pitchers. This means nothing to those of you that want that protected pick this year, but, the future of this team will always be a consistent steady stream of quality ballplayers coming out of the system, through draft picks and international free agents.
The last six years have produced:
2008 - 2B Daniel Murphy, SP Jon Niese, RP Bobby Parnell
2009 – none
2010 – 1B Ike Davis, SS Ruben Tejada, 1B Lucas Duda, SP Dillon Gee, IF Justin Turner, SP Jenrry Mejia
2011 – 1B Josh Satin, SP Chris Schwinden
2012 – Kirk Nieuwenhuis, IF Jordany Valdespin, SP Matt Harvey, 3B Zach Lutz, SP Collin McHugh, RP Jeurys Familia, RP Robert Carson
2013 – OF Juan Lagares, OF Matt den Dekker, IF Wilmer Flores, IF Wilfredo Tovar, C Juan Centeno, RP Gonzalez Germen
Is the system working? Well, I can say this… 24 members of the current organization have played at least one game in Queens in the last six seasons. That’s a really big number in baseball, though it speaks nothing to the quality of the player vs. others in the league. That’s for you to judge, but, in my opinion, the system is working.
We have a new Cuban defector the Mets will probably ignore. 23-year old , 5-11, RHP Raicel Igleias, a member of the Cuban National team, has said hasta la vista and will sign with an MLB team (Reuters report). There are no restrictions on him so he can pick his team. Last year for team Isla de la Juventud: 15-G, 2-ST, 1.68-ERA, 50-K, 20-BB, 53.2-IP The fast ball sits in the 92-95 range and has a + 76-81 breaking ball. His control has greatly improved over a 2011 season where he was 76.2-IP/53-K/54-BB. He projects to start his MLB career at either the A+ or AA level.
Now that were home we have a shot at a protected pick and maybe they should ask MLB to schedule all our games next year on the road. All kidding aside we'll never contend until they can figure out why we suck so much at Citi-field. I'm also sure Sandy won't lose our first round pick if it's not protected and I don't see either Choo or Pence signing for less than 6 years at 90 to 100 million because their the best of a weak market so some idiot owner will pay them stupid money so lets let Sandy do what he does best anyway and stay with 2nd tier free agents and trades.
ReplyDeleteI agree Gary. I believe Sandy has 2 or 3 agenda's for the off-season!
ReplyDelete#1 AGENDA,WITH PROTECTED PICK. Sign Choo-Pence-Lincecum
#2 SIGN Tanaka-Abreu and Beltran
#3 Trades, with Colorado or Tampa
I agree, wtf is Collins doing!!!! He should be playing Flores at second, dd and lagares together in the outfield. Put Murphy on 1st or 3rd base for the remainder of the games... I would like murph to get to 80 ribeye steaks before the season is over, so it looks good on his résumé when we look to trade him.
ReplyDeleteAlso u do have to give murph big props for even coming close to 80 rbi's from the 2 hole, that is amazing considering all the different people he had in front of him.
I just can't fathom what was going through Collins' brain last night, pinch hitting for GEE with 199 innings, only 89 pitches thrown, in a completely meaningless game. How to really piss off the guys in the clubhouse, playing by the book when one of your key player's goal is at stake. To me, Collins is an ass.
ReplyDeleteYou can't ask or expect managers, coaches, or ballplayers to dump a game for a protected pick. That's not how they play this game.
ReplyDeleteIn typical Mets fashion, we go on a hot streak at the worst time and put us in the very precarious position. We need to lose 2 out of the last 3 games and we will lock up a protected pick. We also need two cy young award winners to win tonight, Dickey for Toronto and Cliff ales for the Phillies. Remember, we have the tie breaker over Philiadelphia and Milwaukee, but we can't tie with the Brewers since we're playing them 3 more times.
ReplyDeleteRight now, we're 1 game out of the "race" so if we only win 1 of the final 3, we would end up tied with the Brewers, which would award us with the 10th pick since we finished with a lower record last year. Believe me, this is a franchise changing result since as we've spoken about, this pick will be a top talent to,further restock our improving farm system. I can't stress the importance of getting this protected pick and being able to sign Choo, Beltran, Pence, Etc..
I'd really like to see the Phillies fall outside of the top 10 as well so they have to make the tough decision of whether to pursue a type A free agent or qualifying offer free agent, so if we finish tied with them, we would get the protected pick. I'd love to see the Mets be able to sign Choo and draft Jacob Gatewood, but falling outside the top 10 makes this Philadelphias reality.
I know how taboo it is to root against your own team, but this is on the best interest of the future of the franchise to lose 2 out of the last 3 games and put us in a position to sign a top free agent to bolster our lineup, as well as draft a young prospect, which will likely be a top 10 organizational player to build around.
"but we can’t tie with the Brewers since we’re playing them 3 more times."
ReplyDeleteScratch that, that was a typo. The goal is to tie with the Brewers since we have the tie breaker.
I can't seem to get this whole protected pick thing worked out in my head.
ReplyDeleteLet me know Monday if we get one.
So.....not for nothin.......but I just looked up all the first round draft picks in mets history.........long story short..........we probably should just root for our team to win and not care about the pick.......just sayin.
ReplyDeleteErnest, I did a big piece on this around 5-6 years ago and broke out the top 5 Mets picks for each year and how they did in baseball.
ReplyDeleteYou don't want to read it.
Its a very interesting conversation,going on about the draft pick! Yes the Mets historically haven't drafted great in the 1st round. But how many 1st rounds have been as strong as this one? Also the data from players 5 or 6 years ago isn't as advanced as it is today! Players are being watched and scouted and have a profile at younger age. So teams also have more money to scout and make sure they don't miss on the 1st pick. It also makes having a pick for financial reasons,of cost control going forward. Im enjoying all your inputs on this. My opinion is do what you can to ,keep the pick,jump on the players you target,but don't over pay in terms of years! For example if Choo is your target and you have money pay him,but don't exceed the years you feel comfortable paying. If you want him for only 4 years,it might cost you more per season than if you went 5 years. I'll sit back and read
ReplyDelete2000 - 2 1st round picks... P Billy Traber and P Bobby Keppel
ReplyDelete2001 - 2 1st round picks... P Aaron Heilman and 3B David Wright
2002 - P Scott Kazmir
2003 - OF Lastings Milledge
2004 - P Phil Humber
2005 - P Mike Pelfrey
2006 - none
2007 - 2 1st round picks - P Eddie Kunz and P Nathan Vineyard
2008 - 3 1st round picks - 1B Ike Davis, 2B Reese Havens P Brad Holt
2009 - none
2010 - P Matt Harvey
2011- OF Brandon Nimmo
2012 - SS Gavin Cecchini
2013 - 1B Dominic Smith
Closer - I couldn't agree more.
ReplyDeleteAlso, the player picked is just as important for future trades as he is if he becomes part of the team. If he plays well through AA and has trade value, that could help the Mets in a few years. If he goes on to flame out after that who cares. The Mets just desperately need to add another high ceiling hitter to the system.
Mack-
ReplyDeleteThe recent drafts have been disappointing. I don't blame them for taking a chance on Nimmo but I was bummed when Springer went two picks earlier. Then in 2012, I couldn't (and still can't ) believe that the Mets passed up both Giolito and then McCullers with successive picks. Imagine having both of those arms in the system to go with what they already have. As far as this year, Dom Smith looks to be good, but who knows....I was hoping Meadows would fall to NY and he just might have if Pitt didn't get that extra pick.
The way I figure it, over the last 3 games IF THE METS GO:
ReplyDelete0-3 --> Protected Pick
1-2 --> Protected Pick
2-1 --> PP only if PHIL 3-0 & SF wins 1 game
3-0 --> NO PP