Any baseball fan worth his salt knows some version of the old Leo Durocher story when he was managing the giants. In an interview with Red Barber he was asked about why he wasn’t a nicer guy.
He exploded at
the reporter by saying, ““Nice
guys! Look over there. Do you know a nicer guy than Mel Ott? Or any of the
other Giants? Why, they’re the nicest guys in the world! And where are they? In
seventh place! Nice guys! I’m not a nice guy – and I’m in first place.”
After pacing up
and down the visitors’ dugout, the Dodger manager waved a hand toward the
Giants’ dugout and repeated, “The nice guys are all over there, in seventh
place.”
This exchanges
has been bumper-stickered into the now famous, “Nice guys finish last.”
So as you look
around the Mets team you see a roster filled with some people perceived as nice
guys such as Brandon Nimmo and David Wright, some people perceived as somewhat
less so like Matt Harvey and Yoenis Cespedes, and then some whose off-the-field
antics put them into a special category of persona non grata.
It got me to
thinking about some historical frames of reference on the subject. Ty Cobb was one of the surliest, meanest and
bigoted players ever to put on a uniform, but wouldn’t you want him on your
club if you were trying to win? The
latter day version of a distasteful type is free-agent-to-be Bryce Harper. So the question is does character matter more
than winning?
You can go both
ways on this issue. No one is asking you
to break bread with the less than savory players who have tremendous
on-the-field talent. What you want
(unless you are the Wilpons) is a competitive team that has a chance to get to
the post-season. Towards that end, if
the player in question is a prima donna but hits 30 HRs or steals 50 bases or
bats .300 or saves 40 games or wins a Cy Young Award, then does his
personality, taste in politics or whatever matter?
On the other
hand, Charles Barkley once famously said “I’m not a role model. Just because I dunk a basketball doesn’t mean
I should raise your kids.” The fact remains that children do look up to their
stars with awe and aspiration to be like them.
If they read about players threatening their significant others with weapons,
striking them, using homophobic slurs or taking drugs (PED or recreational),
what kind of message does that send to them?
Less so in
baseball than in other sports, how important is it to be a good teammate? In football, for example, an offensive
lineman protects his quarterback and a key block may allow a running back to
get free. In baseball you have a
perpetual series of one-on-one challenges, pitcher against hitter, batted ball
against fielder, throw against baserunner, etc.
Consequently it’s probably easier to absorb selfish types in this game
than in others.
Terry Collins was by most reports a very nice guy. It’s likely one of the reasons he lasted as long as he did. But should being nice take precedence over winning? Or should winning eclipse everything?
Funny how my 8:00 article and comments tie into your article - 2 examples were presented of HUGE Mets mistakes made by passing on a player of supposedly questionable character by the Mets: Sheffield and Kazmir.
ReplyDeleteMaybe Daniel Murphy and Jeff Kent fall in there too.
When the Detroit Pistons won championships with Rick Mahorn, Isaiah Thomas, Bill Lambeer and Dennis "Kim Jong" Rodman, they won by being NASTY as well as good.
Nasty sometimes beats nice. Maybe more than sometimes.
They dont all need to be Choir boys... Look at the *6 team There was the Kid Gary Carter and then there was Darryl... we needed both to Win...
ReplyDeleteThere is no correlation between demeanor and performance. Nasty and nice can both be winners . . or losers. The '86 Mets were actually a pretty nasty bunch, and look what they accomplished.
ReplyDeleteBTW< I think the "unless you are the Wilpons" crack as unnecessary and uncalled for. But that's only my opinion.
@Herb -- everyone is entitled to their opinion but I'd like to see facts that support the thesis that the Wilpons do what's necessary to put a winning team on the field.
ReplyDeleteYou're absolutely right, Herb, but you'll never convince some people that the Wilpons want to win.
ReplyDeletePutting that aside, I'd like to know which current Mets qualify as "persona non grata". I can't think of any myself.
Reese, how about signing the best available position free agent last year to a $109.5 million deal last year, increasing year to year opening day payroll by almost $20 million? That seems to show a commitment to winning to me.
ReplyDeleteThis off season is not over yet, by a long shot. And the Mets seem to be doing exactly what almost all the other teams are doing, waiting and watching. Lets judge them, as Alderson has asked of me, by where the roster is when spring training begins.
I judge them by the won-lost record which has been in the negative 5 of the past 7 years which happens to coincide with the Alderson regime. I also judge them by the ability to make trades of your blue chip prospects that other teams covet. The farm system is in shambles at the upper levels. I also judge them by putting the people on the field who best help you to win instead of keeping people around who underperform simply because they are a sunk cost or cost less to begin with. The Yankees had Judge and Sanchez then ADDED Stanton. The Mets have added Swarzak. They treaded water with Bruce and still have not replaced the offense that was dealt away.
ReplyDeleteOther than Walker, who was traded away and not replaced? And to repeat my not yet answered question, who are the persona non grata Mets you referredto?
ReplyDeleteShort memory...
ReplyDeleteThey traded away Bruce, Duda, Granderson, Walker, Reed...
They brought back Bruce. Is Swarzak as good as Reed? I certainly hope so. Who are the Walker and Granderson replacements?
Oh yeah, they let Aoki and Reyes go, too...who have replaced them?
Also in the short memory department, there was a certain shortstop in a domestic violence situation and a certain closer facing a similar scenario...
Reese...interesting article in NY Post today....Jeff Wilpon talking payroll.
ReplyDeleteDuda was replaced by Gonzo;Bruce by.... Bruce. Grandy will be replaced by any of 100 or so #5 OFers available. The missing piece is Walker's, and I have zero doubt that it will be filled within 2 weeks. Possibly with... Walker.
ReplyDeleteYou sound like you want Reyes back. So do I.
As for the charges against him and Jeuris, they are indeed serious (though possibly not as reported), but "persona non grata" in the Clubhouse? Hardly.
I want Mike Moustakas at 3B and Wilmer Flores at 2B with Asdrubal Cabrera and Jose Reyes on the bench.
ReplyDeleteWhat I'll get is Asdrubal Cabrera at 3B, Jose Reyes at 2B, Wilmer Flores and Matt Reynolds on the bench.
@Tom -- I read that article and cited in an email to friends the forked tongue with which Jeff Wilpon speaks. He refers to the Mets having been in the top 5 in payroll...ummm...
ReplyDelete2017 Ranked 12th
2016 Ranked 19th
2015 Ranked 21st
2014 Ranked 22nd
2013 Ranked 23rd
2012 Ranked 14th
2011 Ranked 7th
They WERE Top 5 for many years pre-Madoff. If he said they had been there since 2011, THAT would be "forked tongue".
ReplyDeleteI want to correct myself about replacing Grandy. The plan as of now is to have an 8-man pen, meaning only a 4-man bench. One of the 4 is a Catcher. I'm pretty positive that 2 of the remaining 3 will be IFers.
Anyone disagree?
That comes out to an average payroll of 16.85 (th) over the seven years.......NOT in the top five. Maybe Jeff was confused and meant the top five of the "second tier", you know, teams 16 through 30?
ReplyDeleteOn the topic of team chemistry and perception of individual players' character strengths. Just look at the 1986 NY Mets Championship team for an example of different players personalities and perceptions of personalities and then how that did not seem at all to hurt that particular seasons winning outcome.
ReplyDeleteThe '86 Mets team had one of the widest ranges of player personalities that I personally have ever seen. But it was together, all wheels pointing in the same exact direction, an exciting team even if just for that one fabulous season, poetry in motion.
Diverse personality players can win big as well. In example here, the 1975 NY Yankees under Billy Martin. All said, there is no precise formula in professional sports for winning Championships via the personality of a teams players and it all really does comes down to just two things really: How everyone comes together as one team on the field despite the personality differences, and secondly the master-blending of the talent of those 25 players. In other words here, are all the bases covered so to speak talent wise, and does the 25-man roster allow for sufficient backup support should a key player go down hurt for an extended period of time.
All tolled, I feel that this 2018 NY Mets team (thus far) is close to having everything it will need to contend for a Championship this season. However, I would advise maybe two more things: (A) Taking maybe one more hard look at the 2018 season's reliance upon players who have in recent history been hurt too much and for too long, making winning later on in the season very, very difficult. (B) Do not assume or overlook the younger players coming up now who if given an ample opportunity playing could prove themselves to be better than their more veteran counterparts already here and more easily penciled in to start. In other words, have a reasonable audition period for these younger players at Spring Training. You may just be amazed because that player could be the difference maker going into the Playoff Rounds in 2018. Be open minded and don't base your entire decision solely upon a player's contracted terms.
In response to Michael Friere"s post today regarding the 2018 NYM catcher position...I am not a proponent of bringing in LuCroy. I feel that his talent level and statistics have seriously begun to drop off of late. His HR/BA stat being evidence of this. I pass on Jonathon. PLus, a team wants to get to the point in their developmental hierarchy to have most of what they need waiting at AAA for their ST chance the next season.
ReplyDeleteThe catcher position here is still a bit suspect. I like Kevin Plawecki but would love to see a left handed batter or even a switch hitter teamed up with Kevin.
I'd pass on Todd Frazier as well. Again, there is no reason not to have Cabrera on third base this year. He is potentially a .285 BA, 22 HR, 68 RBI man. I can most assuredly live with that!
NYM AAA/AA: Maybe add in players like a CWS switch hitting catcher Zach Collins and other players young enough so that they can be developed beyond where they are right now.
And do not forget OF Tim Tebow in ST. This man should never be counted out! Excellent power swing.