One of our readers wrote an article himself recently about his wish that, among other things, Jake deGrom could lengthen his starts.
I have often expressed the same wish. So I thought I would take a fresh look at it. I mean, why not?
I decided to compare Jake from 2017 through 2019 to another great Met hurler, Tom Seaver, spanning 1969 through 1971. I decided to do that comparison adjusting for, and in light of, the two stars pitching in very different eras.
I often wondered if there being a greater amount of double plays and perhaps more "caught stealings" back in Seaver’s day, as compared to Jake’s current day, might account for fewer pitches and longer Seaver-era outings.
Turns out that in those three years from 1970 to 1971, there were on average 15 more double plays per team and 15 more guys were caught stealing on average each year, indeed saving pitches.
However, the defense in today’s game is demonstrably better than back then. In 1969 to 1971, each team averaged 138 errors as opposed to just 95 errors per team in 2017 through 2019, leading to more pitches in Seaver’s era due to errors.
So to me, all of the above seemed like a wash in terms of whether or not DPs, SBs, and errors would save either Seaver or deGrom a number of pitches per game. Overall, those 3 factors together seemingly would have little to no net effect on pitch count.
One factor seemingly favoring Seaver was that baseball as a whole was lower scoring back in Seaver’s time. Smaller ball, close, low-scoring games.
In the three Seaver years, 1969-71, the average team scored 4.1 runs per game. In 2017 through 2019, the average team scored 4.64 runs per game, or slightly more than a half run per game. Much of that was due to the long ball. Back in those three Seaver years, MLB teams averaged 131 home runs, while in Jake’s three years, teams averaged a much higher 205 home runs.
I think, very simply, higher scoring zeroes in on the reason why Jake throws less innings per start than Seaver. More runs, and greater fear of giving up the long ball.
Seaver in those three years averaged eight innings per start, while Jake averaged just 6.6 innings per start, nearly an inning and a half less per start. In the same timeframes, Seaver averaged “just” 8.26 strikeouts per nine innings, while Jake averaged a much higher 11.04 strikeouts per nine innings.
It doesn't take a team of analysts to understand that it takes a lot more pitches to strike out 2.8 more guys per nine innings than to retire those hitters in a non-K fashion.
I believe it all comes down to Jake's efforts to avoid the long ball, with dingers being a clearer and more present danger to pitchers in the current era than it was back in the early Seaver days. Jake calculates that with the stronger hitters today, the best strategy is to fan as many of them as possible, not allowing them to put the ball in play. Can't hit a HR when you fan, man.
There was of course clearly a major league mindset back in Tom’s day that complete games from a starter was a desirable outcome, because Seaver in those three years averaged 35 starts while completing 19 of them. Jake on the other hand averaged 32 starts while averaging one complete game. The increased dependence on a parade of bullpen “specialists” in the current day’s game clearly factors in as well. Pitchers are just not expected to complete games anymore. Too much starter arm mega-investment to protect.
That said, Jake has inarguably lost many many games due to the failings of his bullpen. We've all seen it, we've all felt it.
I just have to wonder if Jake were able to increase his average innings per start modestly, from 6.6 to 7.0, thereby eliminating on average about a half inning of bullpen use per start, how many more games he and the Mets might win, since in my mind a tiring pitcher of Jake’s brilliance is clearly superior to almost any bullpen arm that might be brought in to replace him. ("Hey, Jake is getting the ball up in the zone just a little bit, and I'm a manager genius, so let's bring in Paul Sewald. Whaddya think?")
It seems that all it would take would be for Jake to pitch more to contact, reducing his average pitches per batter. He’d just have to be willing to tweak his strategy a bit to not be fanning as many as 11 per 9 IP anymore. Maybe reducing that rate to 9 Ks per 9, while trusting that most batted balls would be outs, might get him to 10 or so fewer pitches through 6.6 innings and allow him to face another 2 or 3 batters.
Of course, deGrom no doubt feels tons of what I'll call SP 1 pressure, pressure made worse by his incredible struggle to get W's himself. Former SP 1 Seaver allowed 2.53 runs per 9 IP in those 3 years, while the Mets ( including his stats) allowed 3.75 per game, a 1.22 run differential. Jake allowed 2.83 runs per 9 vs. the Mets allowing 4.75, a much larger and nearly 2 run differential.
The rest of the Mets’ staff, excluding Jake, (awfully) allowed over 5 runs per 9 IP over those 3 seasons. Jake may simply feel that he can’t take chances, he's gotta go all out for Ks, because if he fails in his starts, the team will just eventually collapse each year...so he feels compelled to punch out as many opposing hitters as he can and then hope the pen can occasionally come through.
Me? I’d like to see him add that half inning per start. If that means less Ks, to hold down his pitch count, so be it. Whenever I see him throwing 10-12 pitch strikeouts, I see it as a victory of sorts for the other team, as it means his outing will be shorter, and the opponent can then attack a weaker bullpen.
Less Ks...go longer...and win more, perhaps?
What say you?
P.S. Some fans are already getting testy with Steve Cohen. After all, he’s a billionaire, just get the players you want and budget be damned.
I would suggest PATIENCE. They’re not playing games in early January, last I checked. Let’s see the team he has put together when the games actually count.
Oh dear Lord, not this again.
ReplyDeleteYou've got to stop comparing Jake to Seaver and pretending that you are adjusting for the differences in the game. It's just lazy and pointless. How many Jake/Seaver comps are you going to write?
It would be exactly like comparing Seaver to Grover Alexander who was the ERA leader in 1920. Or Jeff McNeil to George Sisler.
Look at a 1970 baseball game sometime. Look at the bodies, look at the swings. It's just different.
Jake is awesome, a gift, stop picking him apart like a lab rat.
Start pitching to contact? Really?
Don't change a thing.
It's not 50 years ago.
Jimmy
Well, Jimmy, you're right. 100%.
ReplyDeleteJake can continue averaging 6 1/2 innings per start and being a .500 pitcher. Works for me.
Note that I am not saying he should strike out 6 per 9 instead of 11 per 9. I am talking a slight tweak. Can he adjust SLIGHTLY to get 2 more outs on average per outing. Because, unless they really revamp the pen, we will see him lose several wins every season as he hopes the pen can get the last 8 outs - and fails to. It's like having Michael Jordan go 38 minutes and putting in some CBA guy to play the last 10 minutes.
I agree, though - come to think of it, I like Jake as a .500 pitcher. A lot. No changes are necessary. Sorry I suggested it.
And, come to think of it, I also like missing the playoffs every year. No player needs to make any adjustments. Why would I even think to suggest any?
ReplyDeleteTom I agree with you but not with Jake making any changes...How about being a little more like Harvey and saying I am not leaving this game...
ReplyDeleteThis is MY game to lose...
there are say about 4 to five games out of the 30 he starts that he should demand to stay in for the next inning. Leaving the game with less than 100 pitches should never occur...
I agree with both Jimmy and Tom. I do not see any point in comparing deGrom and Seaver. Or Gooden to Matthewson. There was an article a week or so ago on one of the other sites titled "Just how great is Jacob deGrom in Mets history?" I will repost my comment from that article which I am guessing Jimmy will agree with:
ReplyDeleteThese types of articles are not particularly interesting to me. I generally don’t like to get into the comparison discussions, particularly between players of different times.
Tom Seaver was the guy when I was growing up; they guy I rooted for and the guy that helped the Mets win games and a championship.
Doc Gooden was electric in the mid eighties and the number 1 guy on a terrific staff that also helped the Mets win games and a championship.
Jacob deGrom is a great pitcher on the current team that I know always gives the Mets a good chance to win the game when he pitches.
I do not rate them against each other. I just appreciate them for who they are at the time they are pitching. WAR values don’t do much for me.
- end of referenced post -
Now, with that all said, I do agree that Jake could and should throw deeper into games, not only to help his chances of winning, but also to help his potential chances in the Hall of Fame discussion down the road, if he keeps it up.
I look at the game of September 26, 2020 - he started the first game of the double header in Washington which was a must win game for the Mets. He threw 5 innings of the 7 inning game and left with a 3-3 tie. Why? It was going to be his last start of the regular season, and he was on regular rest. He had already started the game, so they weren't saving him for the playoff game. . Makes no sense to me.
One other point that I also made in another post along the way. I believe Jake could be even better if they would put a better defense behind him. I believe that because of the less than stellar outfield and infield defense, that he is (consciously or subconsciously) trying to strike guys out so they don't hit it where it cannot be fielded. Put a great centerfielder out there and results might be different.
Lastly, it will be interesting to see if McCann will have any effect on Jake and the staff in general.
It's not about Jake, and only partially about IP. Like it or not, Analytics have taken over the game, and not just in Queens.
ReplyDeletePitch counts, times through the order, and similar factors rule, and managers have little discretion. Ask Snell about his final outing of 2020.
What could extend Jake's innings/game would be reducing his pitch counts, which McCann's framing could factor into, and maybe pitching to contact and getting more 12-pitch IP instead of 18-20.
Eddie, good point.
ReplyDeleteRemember 1969, my comparison to Seaver only came down to less Ks, less pitches. The eras are different and I would never expect Jake to start cranking out complete games. Just, on average, getting 2 more outs.
ReplyDeleteBill, good point about McCann. He could help in his framing and in his CS %
ReplyDeleteTom,
ReplyDeleteI think trying to explain differences in innings pitched in different eras using stats like SBs, DPs, Ks, etc. is futile. The thing is that there was a totally different mentality back in Seaver's day, and even before. And it is hard to explain, since you would think that modern conditioning methods would make pitchers more durable, although perhaps they are also putting more strain on their arms nowadays, with the complexity of various pitches.
If you look at the top 3 Mets pitchers in the late '60s, (Seaver, Koosman, Gentry) they were each throwing complete games in the double digits per season. Come the late '80s, the top 3 (Doc, Ronny and Bobby O) were regularly tossing complete games in the mid to high single digits. In recent years look at the top 3. Jake and Thor both have 3 CGs in their careers, and Wheeler only 1. There is just a long term trend reducing the number of pitches a pitcher throws per game.
If deGrom pitched on the '69 Mets, there is little doubt in my mind that he would have double digit complete games each season and average 7.5 IP/G like Seaver did, rather than the 6.3 he averages now.
Herb, well stated. But if Jake leaves 8 outs to the pen rather than 6 outs, he can’t complain if he wins fewer games as a result.
ReplyDelete