6/16/20

Tom Brennan - WHICH PITCHER WHO AT SOME POINT PITCHED FOR THE METS WAS THE BEST CAREER PITCHER OF THEM ALL?


Who really cares if we have a 2020 season when we have...memories.

If this keeps up, and 2020 goes "POOF!", then Pete Alonso may end up averaging 26.5 HRs over 2 years, which is where most pundits expected him to be for his first two years before 2019 happened.   And he even out-did my 45 HR estimate by hitting 53 dingers.  Anyway...back to my article.

The Mets have had a pitching-rich history - Seaver, Koosman, Gooden, Cone, and deGrom, just to name a few.


But which pitcher, who even pitched at least briefly for the Mets, was the greatest of them all, either over their whole career or for a significant stretch of time, either before the Mets or while with the Mets?


My brother Steve suggested it was Pedro Martinez and a case certainly could be made for him.


From 1997 through 2003, Pedro was simply and categorically exceptionally extraordinary.


He pitched 6 full seasons and half of another in that stretch.  

Divide his totals for those 7 seasons, in which he went 118-36, by a factor of 6.5 and you get his average full season for that period:


He averaged 18-5, 2.19 ERA with 216 IP, 155 H, 38 BB, and 271 Ks.


In one of those seasons, in (mind you) a DH league in a hitters' park, he was an insane 23-4, 2.07 with 313 Ks in 213 IP, and just 160 hits allowed.


With the Mets, he brought an elite winner's attitude, but started to fall apart physically.  Nonetheless, in his 4 seasons he still managed to go a decent 32-23 as a Met.


Career-wise, he was 219-100, 2.93 ERA, 3,154 Ks in 2,827 innings and a 1.05 WHIP.  Superb.


But wait, what about - the great Warren Spahn?


Despite missing 3 full prime years in World War 2, from 1943 to 1945, as well as half of 1946, Spahn still went 363-245, with a 3.09 ERA over 5,244 innings, winning 20 or more games an incredible 13 times.  


His career #'s before his 13-29 fade over his last two seasons at age 43 and 44 in 1964 and 1965 were an incredible 350-216.  

Of course, in his one season with the horrible 1964 Mets, he was 4-12 in that timeframe, despite a decent enough 4.36 ERA.  With a good team, maybe he is 10-6 instead of 4-12


He went 23-7 at age 32 and 23-7 again at age 42.  Spahn won a Cy Young, 3 ERA titles, and made seventeen (17!) All Star appearances, with 382 complete games and 63 shutouts.


Not a fireballer like Pedro, with just 2,583 strikeouts in those 5,244 innings, he was nonetheless an easy 400+ game winner were it not for WW II, perhaps a 440 game winner.


Spahnie was also an exceptional hitter, with 57 doubles, 35 HRs and 189 RBIs in 1,872 career ABs.


And let's not forget 382 complete games, those 60+ shutouts, and - yes - even 28 saves, too.  He was the "complete" package.

Tom Glavine, a similar pitcher to Warren Spahn, was 305-253, with a 3.54 ERA, and 2,607 Ks in 4,413 innings from 1987 through 2008.  

As a Met, in 5 late-in-career seasons, he was just 61-56, 3.97, of course including 4-11, 5.15 ERA against the Braves, but while with the almost always playoff contending Braves, he was a marvelous 244-147, with a 3.41 ERA, along with five 20 win seasons.  Pitching for a strong team always helps - in his last 2 seasons with the Mets in 2006 and 2007, when the Mets averaged 93 wins, Glavine was 28-15.

Outside his very early years and last "farewell" year with the Braves in 2008, he was a truly spectacular 231-122 with the Braves from 1989 to 2002.  


Still, compared to Spahn, he seemed like "close, but no cigar."  Hard to think a guy who goes 305-253 could be considered "Spahn Lite."


Dwight Gooden was very Pedro-like in his first 3 spectacular seasons in which he went 58-19 by age 22, with  744 Ks in 745 innings, including a mind boggling 276 Ks in 218 IP as a teenage rookie.  No one in baseball history had ever pitched so well so young, at least the way I sees it.


He was very, very solid over his next 4 years going 61-27, making him an astonishing 119-46 at that point.  Sadly, arm mileage and personal issues made him just 75-66 over his last 7 seasons. But anyone who saw early Dwight saw someone who ought to be in the Hall of Fame just for that.


David Cone was a notch down from Gooden, finishing 194-126, with two 20 win seasons, including a masterful 20-3, 2.22 in his second season after the Mets acquired (excuse me, stole) him in 1988, good enough for a Cy Young in almost any year where a guy named Orel Hershiser wasn't doing insane, incredible things that self-same season.  Also not quite good enough for the Hall of Fame, but Cone was a stellar 81-51 as a Met.


Billy Wagner was an incredible reliever, and belongs in consideration here.  After a superb stretch with the Astros, the lefty flame thrower and hopefully future Hall of Famer was 5-5 2.37 with 101 saves for the Mets with 230 Ks in 189 IP.  In his entire career, he was 47-40, 2.31, with 1,196 Ks in 903 innings, a 0.998 career WHIP, and just 601 hits allowed.  The only thing he didn't accomplish was pitching longer than he did. But I’d take about six of him, thanks for asking.


Speaking of flame throwers, the Mets had one that got away...Hall of Famer Nolan Ryan. He was just 29-38 for the punch-less Mets, but 295-254 for others.  The Express fired 7 no hitters, 222 complete games, Pitched in 27 seasons, and tied with Tom Seaver with 61 shutouts.  Add in, if you choose too, his stunning 5,714 Ks in 5,386 innings.  Six years with 300 or more Ks, the last time at age 42 in just 239 IP.  He was 324-292, having pitched most of his career for weak to downright anemic hitting teams.  Two ERA titles, 8 All Star appearances.  But I’d still make that Fregosi trade in a heartbeat, wouldn’t you?

Of course, there is Mets, rookie of the year, 3 times Cy Young award winner and Hall of Famer Tom Seaver, who was a 12 time All Star and 3 time ERA title champion.  Pitching for a weak hitting Mets team, he was 198-124, 2.57 ERA as a Met.  Just 57-64 in his last 5 years, from age 37 on, but before that, a stellar 254-141. 


311-205, 2.86 ERA career with a 3,640 Ks...231 complete games and 61 shutouts. Wow.

Jerry Koosman was Seaver's contemporary, great, but not as great.  He got too little run support, always a sore point with me - I will leave him at that.


Of course, we have work-in-progress Jake deGrom, winner of 2 straight Cy Young awards, a career 2.66 ERA and 1,255 Ks in 1,101 innings.  He gets disqualified from the above simply because he has not gone long enough.


The above describes a whole lot of excellence.

But...picking between the ultra-elites among them - Spahn, Seaver, Martinez and Ryan?  



I'll let you, the reader, pick.

You can’t go wrong there.


8 comments:

Reese Kaplan said...

There have been a lot of short termers who wouldn't qualify such as Rick Reed, George Stone and others, but that list you compiled is the longer term hurler elite. Johan Santana maybe should be on it as well, but like Pedro, you never knew how long you were going to get.

Mack Ade said...

Your title is almost as long as Rubin's posts.

Tom Brennan said...

That was sure a long title, Mack - my longest ever!

Johan was good, Reese, but no Pedro. Pedro in his prime was PEDRO!

Dwight Gooden STARTED 303 games as a Met - Spahn COMPLETED 382 starts. Just staggering.

Tom Brennan said...

I did not do a similar article for hitters, because the answer would be obvious: Willie Mays.

Some guy did an article the other day (which I did not read) indicating that Cleon Jones was the Mets' greatest all time LF. Considering he had 567 fewer career HRs than the Say Hey Kid, that ain't something to brag about.

Anyway...

Say hey - have a great day.

holmer said...

Spahn by far. 383 wins total.

ReyesMets said...

“Spahn by far. 383 wins total.”

this comment was posted in 1974... back when WINS was not a total joke stat

Tom Brennan said...

holmer and ReyesMets, the good thing about complete games? The starter either wins or loses. Most of the time, in complete games, my guess is he won.

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