12/7/16

Mack Ade – Chris Sale

25 comments


Good morning.

The Boston Red Sox trade yesterday of receiving all-star starter Chris Sale for four untested minor leaguers is the kind of trade that frosts my ass as a Mets fan. Sure, Yoan Moncada is the top prospect in baseball and baseball pundits rave about the potential of Michael Kopech, but that’s all they are right now. Neither is a time tested all-star that has already delivered 74 wins in seven seasons and will still pitch 2017 only as a 28-year old.

The Red Sox just added 223 strikeouts to their pitching staff.

The Mets don’t make trades like this. We always tell other clubs that our top prospects are untouchable, rather than tell them come at me and tell me what you are offering for them. There are clubs out there that just want to rid themselves of committed long-term contracts and want an organization of mostly minimum paid minor leaguers. Look at San Diego. They don’t have a single ballplayer left in their organization that has a contract past their ARB-1 (currently undetermined) commitment.

Plus, if the Mets traded for another front end starter like Sale, you would have guys like Robert Gsellman, Seth Lugo, and yes, even Steven Matz, immediately become available for future deals.

Yes, we do sign quality free agents. Yoesnes Cespedes speaks of this. But teams like Boston wouldn’t let their prospects stand in their way of strengthening an already strong rotation. I remember when the Washington Nationals had what was considered one of the strongest rotations in baseball. Did that stop them from securing the service of Max Scherzer? I think not.

If Boston didn’t want Curtis Granderson and Jay Bruce in their outfield, they wouldn’t be there. Both would be long gone by now in deals for the best prospects they could get at the time.

If Boston wanted to replace the loss of Granderson and Bruce with one quality right hand hitting outfielder, they would package a couple of these newly secured prospects, along with guys like Amed Rosario and Tomas Nido (I’m holding onto Michael Conforto and starting him this upcoming season in Queens).

And if Boston needed a quality relief pitcher to add to the back end of their pen, I would have plenty more prospects to throw at a team that wanted a couple of quality, minimum salaried prospects.

(There’s a couple more things that I do need to say. Our system is quite depleted right now. It’s from a combination of all the pitchers we gave up to teams to build a team two years ago to get us to the playoffs and, two (as we discussed yesterday) we just don’t draft as well as other teams do. We just don’t.

Another thing the Mets don’t do properly is sign International prospects. Yes, we have signed what seems like 5,345 shortstops, none of which have still turned into anything of any quality.)


25 comments:

bob gregory said...

Yoan Moncada is a great example of how using the international free agent system can benefit the major league club.

I just wish the Mets were not as narrow minded in regards to improving their organization through player acquisition possibilities.

Thomas Brennan said...

It is clear you woke up on the wrong side of the bed today, Mack...no, not really. You are speaking truth.

We draft OK mostly on pitchers, very poorly on offensive players, took a pass on Moncada, who got the Red Sox Chris Sale, and draft too much for guys with flaws (e.g., Cecchini lacks power, glove and speed).

Maybe we could have traded Rosario and Wheeler for Sale. Would have been worth it, I'd think.

Dallas said...

One year of Chris Sale for 2 major prospects only works if you have a strong system. I agree their lack of taking advantage of the international market has hurt us. The Cubs and the Sox seem to be better at evaluating talent in general and have that surplus they can trade from and still have very strong systems. Look at all the pitching talent Cubs got through trades that became premium talent once they got to the club.

San Diego doesnt have anything past ARB-1 because they didnt tender them a contract. We could have decided to not pick up Bruce either. It might have been wiser because I doubt we get much value from him without throwing in other pieces or eating a bunch of the money. Hopefully Alderson finds a sucker.

We can say prospects are untested but you can do reasonable projections. Too often I see prospects get traded for players and the prospects are then brought up to the ML level with their new team and outperform the guy they got traded for. We are at the point where Alderson thinks Rosario will contribute this year. Though somehow he thought Seward/Evans wouldnt....

Dallas said...

Nevermind I thought Sale only had 1 more year on his deal...3 years of a top flight pitcher for 2 prospects is a different story! Glad Nats didnt get him.

bob gregory said...

Hypothetical question(s):

Part 1
If the White Sox would have preferred Rosario & Wheeler to what they received from Boston?

Part 2
If Wheeler & Rosario would have been preferred, would it have benefitted the Mets to become involved by acquiring Sale and then moving him to Boston for the same return?
Moncada > Rosario??

Dallas said...

Latest articles saying OF market has cooled considerably. More and more likely we get a bucket of balls for Bruce. Sandy needs to pull the trigger and get what he can if anything before it gets worse.

Thomas Brennan said...

Bob, that trade and retrade to get Moncada would have been something...interesting thinking.

Eddie Corona said...

I agree Mets don't typically do trades like this...But how many top prospects do we ever have...
What our front office needs to do be better than everyone else at scouting our own prospects...
If Rosario is a Stud and I mean a Stud (not a avg major leaguer) then keep him...
If he is over rate then trade him while other may think him to be a stud... MAXIMIZE all assets...
Like for me Gsellman isnt a Stud... Not in my eyes ...But to say he is off the table is crazy... what if some team sees more in him and offers us a Shelby Miller type deal?



Zozo said...

Don't get me started Mack!!! Ok you did?

One of the reasons why the Red Sox and Cubs have so many prospects is because they went over slot in the international drafts. It's absurd that we don't go over slot, most of the teams do. By not doing so you are not playing on a level playing field with everyone else. I don't know if the new CBA got rid of that but if not that's why I didn't want to give Walker a Qualifying Offer. I would have let him walk and invested that $17 mil into the International Draft. That would have filled up our minors a whole lot better than taking a chance and getting a sandwich pick in regular draft(which we didn't get anyways). We have capable players for second base already on our roster (Reyes, Flores, TJ, and Cecchini).

I would have signed Wilson Ramos, Carlos Gomez and Chapman and not lose a draft pick this year. While also trading Bruce and Granderson. What would be more beneficial for this team right now Walker at 2nd or Chapman in the ninth inning?

Anonymous said...

Hey Mack, the first thing to understand when it comes to the Mets is that they are not the Boston RedSox and don't act like a big market club.

Instead what the Mets have is a Genius in his own mind GM along with the 3 Stooges GM types. All of them basically ignore the international draft picks. I knew they were mentally challenged when they picked Nimmo as they first signature draft pick. When they continued year after year picking HS players during the draft and ignoring better players like Fernandez, Giolito, Joc Petersen, etc.

If the Mets really wanted to in fact take over NY from the Yankees, they could simply sign Encarnacion to a 3 year deal for around 60M. I know he was offered 4 years and 80M but based on stories today, he and most of the free agents like Jose Bautista will not be getting the money they expected. So for argument sake, lets consider this number.

Reyes, Cabrera, Cespedes, Encarnacion, Granderson, Walker, Conforto, d'Arnaud. Now that gives you 3 switch hitters along with 4 power RH and 3 LH power bats if you take into consideration their ability to switch hit with power from Cabrera and Walker.

That would then free up Duda, Flores, Bruce for possible trades for BP, prospects. If they trade Duda and Bruce, that is already the 20M they would pay Encarnacion.

2017 the Mets are more expensive but for 2018 they will be shedding Granderson, Walker 30M on top of the money saved from trading Bruce and Duda and replacing it for around 8M combined from Conforto and Lagares. There is a very good chance that Wright's contract will be getting paid by the insurance at this point as well.

Now, if Smith has a great year in Vegas, you can look to trade Encarnacion and Harvey for elite prospects. Replace Harvey with Gsellman as the 5th starter and sign Machado. You lose Encarnacion and replace him with Machado and Smith.

Okay so now tell how crazy I am.

Mack Ade said...

Anon -

When did Reese go anonymous?

Mack Ade said...

Tom -

Bed? I have a bed?

Seriously, the reason we do not spend enough time discussing what the Mets have done is... wait for it... they do not do much!

Mack Ade said...

Bob -

I believe that the Mets could have put together a package for Sale, but it would take Rosario to be in there.

Mack Ade said...

Eddie -

It is impossible to determine if a minor league prospect is 'a stud'.

Example: no one had a stud tag on Fulmer.

Mack Ade said...

Zozo -

I believe the new agreement does have a QO built into it.

Anonymous said...

Meh....Sale is a beast, but we are already strong on the pitching front. Why deplete the farm system and/or parts of the major league roster to add to the strength of your team when you have other needs?

Not to mention, Sale's arm could fall off at any moment......talk about an unorthodox, violent delivery. The White Sox got a nice haul for him, but if he is a generational talent on a decent contract without any injury risks going forward, why would they deal him away?

This team won 90 games in 2015 and 87 in 2016, despite horrendous injuries and some bad luck. If we regress to the mean on injuries (i.e. less of them this year), then this team is a 90+ win team for 2017, as is with the potential for more.

I would prefer to see some help in the bullpen and a stud CF, before adding another starter.

You keep Gsellman (and Lugo) because they will help in the bullpen and/or the 6th starter's role in the short term and will likely be in the rotation in the long term (big market or not, we cannot sign all five of our starters to long term deals).

You keep Rosario because he is a future stud SS.

Since when is keeping your prospects a bad thing? Wasn't it only a few years ago that we stupidly dealt Scott Kazmir and instantly regretted it?


Mike

Thomas Brennan said...

Lots of good discussion here. This should be the trade committee for the Mets.

Eddie Corona said...

sorry Mack I disagree...
Thats what Scouts are paid to do...
Why was Rosario always viewed as can't miss when he was 18 and hadn't hit like he did in AA...
All over baseball I can name prospects who at a young age were deemed untouchable and why ? Becuase they were studs... latest to come to mind is Sanchez from the team we love to hate... i had been hearing about him for about 6 years and how he was not going anywhere... and his minor league number were poor...
Can you make mistakes of course but again your GM batting avg better be above 500 or as our new President would say "YOUR FIRED"

Eddie Corona said...

this has been the best thread in some time... BRING THE PASSION

Mack Ade said...

Eddie -

A couple more examples...

Jorge Soler was considered a 'can't miss' prospect. Now, after a bad year, he's being mentioned in trade talks.

And what about Jackie Bradley Jr.? It has taken his 4th major league season to put up numbers that are still not considered 'can't miss".

Shit happens Eddie.

bob gregory said...

Update:
Soler was traded.
Straight up for Wade Davis

Anonymous said...

Hey Mack, I am not Reese so I will have to get a real ID so that you will know me instead.
Yes, the Mets had the prospects to trade for Sale but that would then require that they spend on a great lineup to go along with it.

When was the last time the Mets had a totally loaded lineup that had speed and power?

Yes, it was back in the Omar era when the Mets had vintage Wright, Reyes and Beltran, Delgado, Floyd and Valentin.

But just like these current Mets, they did not have the great BP/minor league depth to back them up in case of injuries.

When the Mets played the Royals for the WS, they were ahead in most games and the BP kept blowing the leads.

Most teams these days have multiple players that can be closers. The Mets have two in Familia and Reed. They need another one and Melancon would have been perfect. In big games, Familia has too much Benitez in him for me to trust him.

With so many injured starters coming back, it would have been nice for the Mets to shorten the game to 6 innings and then deploying a killer BP. Maybe they still end up with a great BP if Gsellman and Lugo pitch well and are part of it.

Mack Ade said...

Anon -

I was just joking about the Reese reference. Mr. Kaplan's ego is too large to allow him to be nameless... (joke, Maurice)

I agree with you about the make-up of Mets teams. The core problem is bad drafting and lack of international participation. This leaves them to fill in with secondary free agents in hopes of striking it rich with another Marlon Byrd.

I just wrote about the Wade Davis, Jorge Soler trade. The Cubs could afford to do this because of their depth of top shelf outfield prospects in their system. We just don't have that depth.

Yes please... add your name to future comments when you have the time.

Gary Seagren said...

The problem is the front office as we all know changed after the Madoff mess and has not changed back to my knowledge. I think the FO got a little full of themselves after our WS run in 15' considering the payroll we had and the luck with the Cespedes trade. It just seems that we are always making excuses instead of being pro-active and I'm afraid we have a tough road ahead if we think we can really compete with the big boys when we act more like a small market team. The only way we're going to see the playoffs is to have the pitching we had in 15' and pray for good health.

Eddie Corona said...

stuff happens...Yes
But as i said... Your batting avg better be better than 500...
and Soler wasn't dump... (SEE CONFORTO) He was traded for one of the top 5 Closers in the league....
He is still Highly considered...
Jackie Bradley? He is one of the best young OF in the game... So he had a tough year a few years ago... Are you not suppose to stumble? Some do take time to Develop... That the evaluation...

Both fall in the cant miss status...but even better and you made my point... were maximized as asset...

If you told me we could get say Machado, for Rosario plus then well Nice knowing you Rosario...
But you eventually need another Rosario to offset the eventual salary...

And while I 100pct agree the Mets have been poor at the Draft (which i hold Sandy more responsible since that was his focus when he came in) and International market, they have been adequate with the international armature signing (familia, mejia, Rosario, Gimenez)

its the International free agents that they refuse to partake (moncada, Cespedes, Ichiro, matsui)

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